Curse

TabascoSauce · Sep 09, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Hey, I got some quotes for you from the other thread.

Quote:

Google the Advanced Lawnmower Simulator (ALS for short).

You'll play it once or twice, and have fun sending it to your friends, but it gets old fast because it is exactly the same content.

Now imagine that they had a central completion counter for the ALS. If you complete it 6 thousand times, then you get a bonus!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your lawnmower will go 20 percent faster!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahooooo!

Welcome to the new vision of GW(?) Make a short game, then put superskills tied to repetitive grind area-clearing. Wow, doesn't that sound like a winner?

Oh, and the best the grind-supporters can say is that it is optional? So, what other option do I have? Play different areas? Oh, no, they did not make any.

So, go ahead and suggest that I play a different game. Then I'll get to ask you, what does that say about the game when the only alternative you have to offer me in the game besides grind (since there is a shortage of game) is.... go play another game? Heh, just exactly what does that say?

And another.

Quote:

So, what does that say about the the state of the game in general, and you in particular, when your whole argument is "grind extends the game"?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

freekedoutfish · Sep 09, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Slight issue with your quote of...

"Oh, and the best the grind-supporters can say is that it is optional? So, what other option do I have? Play different areas? Oh, no, they did not make any."

...because im not a grind supporter in the slightest. Plus ofcourse we're going to say its optional as defense for the skill+title mechansim.

Thats hardly a revelation!

What other defense are we going to make? Thats a pretty good one in my opinion! As I keep saying it is your choice to increase rank and to effect your personal skills.

The strength of you're personal pve only skills dont effect anyone else, just as Joe Blogs dont effect you.

I dont get the point you were trying to make.

Also...

"So, go ahead and suggest that I play a different game. Then I'll get to ask you, what does that say about the game when the only alternative you have to offer me in the game besides grind (since there is a shortage of game) is.... go play another game? Heh, just exactly what does that say?"

...i've personally said. Offer alternative ways to continue the life span of the game, so it survives the 2 years between GWEN and GW2 and suggest them to Anet.

But ive yet to see any other suggestions. People just seem content to complain, but not suggest different ways to add lifespan!

Yes you can add more quests, more missions, more expansions! But that costs time, resources and money and Anet is trying to focus on a sequal.

But chances are that in 2 years they will either release another expansion or extra features into GWEN. So you're more then likely to get your other stuff aside from more grind.

But i have to go back to my main arguement (which you obviously feel is a bad one). These pve only skills are optional and increasing their strength is optional. The power/strength of your pve only skills has no impact on the guy next to you, and neither does his on you.

Your arguement is that connecting pve only skills to title unbalances the game somehow. But it doesnt because the state of one persons pve only skills has NO impact on you or anyone around them.

Their are completely personalised to that individual and they choose to increase their power or not through ranks in titles.

These pve only skills are not required to play GWEN, factions, NF (aside from LB gaze) or prophercies. Aside from that one, they wont make it more or less possible to complete any of the 4 storylines ingame.

What if they removed all the pve only skills tomorrow? would that kill the game and stop it from functioning? Ofcourse not!

People would still finish the games, and still be able to do missions, quests, dungeons and farm and buy armor and weapons and live their merry lives!

These pve only skills have NO impact on anything, other then making life a bit more interesting and maybe allowing a non monk to do some healing! Big woop!

lord dragon · Sep 09, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

So many people are talking about leaving GWs because apparently its unplayable now. WTF?

Why are people only focusing on the non-essential grind aspects of GWEN, and yet no one is talking about the new locations, outposts, dungeons, quests, skills and hours of new content?

There is far more to GWs and GWEN then just the non-essential stuff you can grind for. I personally think this shows the mentality of players in GWs over the years. People are more and more bothered about being able to easily access those purely athetic items or collectable items which might make them look nicer or their gameplay a bit more fun.

But their not essential to the game.

Lets ignore the hours and months of new gameplay that has been added to keep us entertained. Lets ignore the effort Anet put in and jut focus on the stuff thats not even important to completing the game or the storyline.

Its a bit sad that people seem to want to focus on the negative side of things and leave the game, when there are alot more positive things been added.

All this talk about grind pushing people away from the game is sad, because these things which people are complaining they need grind for are not necessities.

New armor, prestige armor, weapons and pve only skills arent needed to play the game. Their just nice little touches that make it a bit more fun. So just because it takes some effort (OMG reachin rank 5 which is sooo hard to do < sarcasm), you complain and leave?

Im on rank 5 on all races except vanguard and thats only after a week of playing!! Be realistic people. I now have access to most everything and I dont even want to use the pve only skills or even like the armors or the prestiage stuff.

And no, im not a hard core player who lives and breaths GWs and is on every day for 24 hours. So dont bother making those comments!

The simple fact is that once you get passed that rank 5 barrier (which is not hard and stop saying it is), you have access to everything and then its like playing any of the other campaigns where you just need gold and materials and to find locations.

How many times does it have to be said.....It is the skills man, not the armor. The armor sucks, so that is not it. It is the skills. It is FORCING people to look for other games now. Anet is loosing the customer base. They will get a new one of players that know how to hit the C, spacebar well though, so should fit right in with the vision it seems.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

lord dragon · Sep 09, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

These pve only skills have NO impact on anything, other then making life a bit more interesting and maybe allowing a non monk to do some healing! Big woop!

I guess, if you play with yourself, they wouldn't. As soon as you enter a team, they do. Face it, the world works that way whether you believe it or not.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

A Perfect Slayer · Sep 09, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

I dont mind the grind one bit cause for me after finishing the game I still want to do something to keep me busy until gw2 come out and we still have quite a ways before that happens so i dont mind at all

TabascoSauce · Sep 09, 2007, 10:50 PM // 22:50

I think he knows that his argument of "optional" falls down.

We're back to Lawn Mower Simulator, what else is there to do in the game but do the same level over and over and over?

Nothing.

That's the problem with grind, and ANet seems to have anticipated this by the logic "we have maybe 12 hours of content, let us reward them for doing it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again (draw breath)" You get the idea.

His defense is that, this "again and again" thing is....... a game? Nice.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

lord dragon · Sep 09, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I think he knows that his argument of "optional" falls down.

We're back to Lawn Mower Simulator, what else is there to do in the game but do the same level over and over and over?

Nothing.

That's the problem with grind, and ANet seems to have anticipated this by the logic "we have maybe 12 hours of content, let us reward them for doing it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again (draw breath)" You get the idea.

His defense is that, this "again and again" thing is....... a game? Nice.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

LOL

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

Darlichay Dalinar · Sep 09, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by malko050987

In that case, I want to FoW armor. I bought all the games, even got CE version of NF. I want FoW armor, because I PAID for the game >.> Why should I have to farm for weeks to get the materials and cash? No, I want it now. GIVE IT TO ME!!!

I'd say I understand where you're coming from and all... but I don't..

You HAVE access to said armor right after you ascend in any campaign. This is from progression, which is standard in all games for armor, weapons and etc.

If you have the money, that's another thing... but that is also no one's fault but your own. (When I say "your" I mean in general; I'm not trying to attack you in particular.)

Bryant Again · Sep 09, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

...i've personally said. Offer alternative ways to continue the life span of the game, so it survives the 2 years between GWEN and GW2 and suggest them to Anet.

New dungeons/missions/quests/areas/explorables/gametypes. My list goes on. To think that they ran out of ideas is bullshit, and I hope you're not implying that.

Oh, just read this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Yes you can add more quests, more missions, more expansions! But that costs time, resources and money and Anet is trying to focus on a sequal.

If that's the case, I would've much rather they took their sweet time to release GW:EN with content instead of with filler.

But as you said, they can add more content whenever they wish, so not all my moneyz is wasted.

Quote:

These pve only skills are not required to play GWEN, factions, NF (aside from LB gaze) or prophercies. Aside from that one, they wont make it more or less possible to complete any of the 4 storylines ingame.

So are you saying that they *won't* make the game easier?

If no, "Good", if yes, "..."

draxynnic · Sep 10, 2007, 02:00 AM // 02:00

freakedoutfish, I'd have to say I'm just not understanding your attitude. You seem to be saying that you don't enjoy grind, but since you were able to put your nose to the grindstone and get to the rewards in a time period you didn't consider to be beyond the point of unreasonability, it's not a problem and everyone else should too.

But you still keep saying that you don't enjoy grind.

Isn't Guild Wars supposed to be a game? Aren't games supposed to be fun? How, may I ask, is doing something you don't enjoy fun?

I've expressed my feelings in the "How do I get R5 with Norn without grind" thread, but to summarise: I don't mind the rank requirements in and of themselves. I do mind that there doesn't seem to be a way to get them past a certain (fairly low) level without grinding - something which, if the posts are to be believed, no one on either side of this discussion actually enjoys!

That said, referring to the PCGamer article in which GWEN and GW2 were announced, it is mentioned that ANet doesn't intend to just leave us with GWEN until GW2 - that with the abolishment of the campaign system, that a portion of their design team would be able to work in more SF-style content updates that they were unable to implement while working on the campaigns. Hopefully some of those will include new ways to gather faction - since correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if no-one actually likes the grind, it's just that some seem to find it... less unacceptable... than others.

Skyros · Sep 10, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

It's not grinding... you can get the required rank for the specific faction armor by picking up the bonus' while doing sidequests for each of the races.

The concept (at least to me), is that the respective faction is rewarding you for your assistance with their dilemmas.

Of course, people are going to just try to grind it away by just grabbing bonus's in Drakker Lake or Grothmar Wardowns, etc. If you just take te time to do the sidequests and grab the bonus as you are doing them, it won't feel like grinding, but more like exploring the backstory for each faction.

So in turn YES this game grinds because you make it.

draxynnic · Sep 10, 2007, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

It's not grinding... you can get the required rank for the specific faction armor by picking up the bonus' while doing sidequests for each of the races.

The concept (at least to me), is that the respective faction is rewarding you for your assistance with their dilemmas.

Of course, people are going to just try to grind it away by just grabbing bonus's in Drakker Lake or Grothmar Wardowns, etc. If you just take te time to do the sidequests and grab the bonus as you are doing them, it won't feel like grinding, but more like exploring the backstory for each faction.

So in turn YES this game grinds because you make it.

I don't know how you did it, but I did exactly that. I haven't completed any dungeons, but I've completed all of the Ebon Vanguard quests and done a couple of grinding runs to boot, and I haven't even reached rank 4 yet. Even completing the dungeons won't net enough points to get to 5 - and even if it did, pushing the skills certainly WILL involve grind.

If you really could do it the way you describe, I wouldn't have a problem, since that's exactly what I'm asking for. It may even be the case for the Asura, which gives away oodles of rep for their primary quests, but it certainly isn't the case for the Vanguard.

lord dragon · Sep 10, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

It's not grinding... you can get the required rank for the specific faction armor by picking up the bonus' while doing sidequests for each of the races.

The concept (at least to me), is that the respective faction is rewarding you for your assistance with their dilemmas.

Of course, people are going to just try to grind it away by just grabbing bonus's in Drakker Lake or Grothmar Wardowns, etc. If you just take te time to do the sidequests and grab the bonus as you are doing them, it won't feel like grinding, but more like exploring the backstory for each faction.

So in turn YES this game grinds because you make it.

Then let me ask a question. Why are there not posts on the best place to GRIND a title?

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

freekedoutfish · Sep 10, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I think he knows that his argument of "optional" falls down.

My arguement doesnt fall down at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

I guess, if you play with yourself, they wouldn't. As soon as you enter a team, they do. Face it, the world works that way whether you believe it or not.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

You are all trying to argue your point by saying if a person doesnt have a high enough rank in a certain title, and then uses a pve only skill they are fundimentall useless in a group and you wouldnt accept them?

Which somehow makes the game unbalanced and unfair?

Aside from LB gaze (which doesnt actually increase damage per rank, it increase how many targets per rank so a higher rank isnt important) in Nightfall, what other aspect of the ENTIRE game requires you to actually use a pve only skill?

Give me one area (aside from when needing LB gaze), in the entire 3 campaigns and in GWEN when you need to use a pve only skill or it cant be done?

The answer is none!

PvE only skills do not create unbalance in the game. They only thing they seem to be creating is this l33t attitude of "either you have a high enough rank or you cant join us" which is complete bollicks. If I got that kind of attitude ingame id leave that pug and use someone else.

There is absolutely no reason ingame, in pve to be required to have a high rank in a title! Even LB gaze is still effective at rank 1, because higher ranks only make it hit other targets.

lord dragon · Sep 10, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

My arguement doesnt fall down at all.

You are all trying to argue your point by saying if a person doesnt have a high enough rank in a certain title, and then uses a pve only skill they are fundimentall useless in a group and you wouldnt accept them?

I did not say I would not accept them, I said teams have already started to require them. I don't have them, so it would be hard for me to require something I don't have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Which somehow makes the game unbalanced and unfair?

It does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Aside from LB gaze (which doesnt actually increase damage per rank, it increase how many targets per rank so a higher rank isnt important) in Nightfall, what other aspect of the ENTIRE game requires you to actually use a pve only skill?

Please look at the whole title. There is more effect then just LB gaze.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Give me one area (aside from when needing LB gaze), in the entire 3 campaigns and in GWEN when you need to use a pve only skill or it cant be done?

Any and all elite zones now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

PvE only skills do not create unbalance in the game. They only thing they seem to be creating is this l33t attitude of "either you have a high enough rank or you cant join us" which is complete bollicks. If I got that kind of attitude ingame id leave that pug and use someone else.

When teams have enough title huggers out there that require it, and there is no other way to play because the skills are overpowered, it effects it and unbalances the game. This is happening. You have stated you don't do elite areas. Try then and you will see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

There is absolutely no reason ingame, in pve to be required to have a high rank in a title! Even LB gaze is still effective at rank 1, because higher ranks only make it hit other targets.

Please see the title again, there is more to it. I don't like that title either. Hate it. Had to farm for it. Hated it. GWEN just took a really bad idea and expanded it to extremes.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

freekedoutfish · Sep 10, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

Any and all elite zones now.
.

So your telling me you cant play FOW, UW or the Facton elite zones without the need of a pve only skill?

Blimey... how did all those people manage before pve only skills were added!

That would be the sound of your agrument fallin apart!!!

There are no areas (except LB gaze ones) that you need to use a pve only skill and have a high rank to complete that area. If people are dictating otherwise in those zones then they need to grow up and get over themselves.

What about those who dont own GWEN or factions or NF and dont have access to certain pve only skills and titles?

Do you just not accept them?

btw im getting confused between the threads, so if i posted a very similar reply elsewhere, that is why!

freekedoutfish · Sep 10, 2007, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

Then let me ask a question. Why are there not posts on the best place to GRIND a title?

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

I got GWEN about a week ago and im already rank 5 or very near on all races. Quests and dungeons got me to 19k Asura, 15k Drawf and 13k Vanguard and yes I did grind the Norn one during the preview.

However I still have alot of dungeons and some quests left too. That means alot of drawf points atleast to get still and some vangaurd ones.

The last few points i got from bounties while exploring areas or the snowman dungeon which took about 5 runs. It has took very little effort to reach that and im not playing 24/7.

I have ONE farming run let to get to rank 5 vanguard! Just ONE. Now I accept that is only going to get me armor and weapons, but it proves the point that people saying "ahhh its grind to get stuff in GWEN" is sheer nonsense.

I managed that in a week and the vast majority of the points are from doing the storyline.

If you still try and sit there and say to me that GWEN require grind to atleast get armor and weapons, then you're really not trying and playing the game right!

I do accept though that isnt maxing them out and it will take further grind to get max titles... how ever... as I keeep saying, that is choice and you are not forced into it.

lord dragon · Sep 10, 2007, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

[I do accept though that isnt maxing them out and it will take further grind to get max titles... how ever... as I keeep saying, that is choice and you are not forced into it.

You are if it is tied to skills.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

freekedoutfish · Sep 10, 2007, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

You are if it is tied to skills.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

Lord your entire arguement has been blown out the water on that other thread. It isnt Anet whos is causing the unbalance and forcing people to use these skills and increas ranks.

Its elite players like yourself who are trying to force players in FOW, UW and faction elite zone into using pve only skills and then telling them "you cant join because your rank isnt high enough".

Despite the fact people were playing those zones long befor pve only skills were added! It not anet causing the problem. The problem is this usual attitude of...

"right we have new skills that will make elite zones easier, so you either use them, or you cant jon us and you need a high rank so get grinding"

...its just pathetic! You guys are the ones ruining it for everyone else, because you try to inforce your build and your opinion on them! Its not Anets idea of joining skills to titles which is the issue.

Its elite players forcing people to use those skills and then feeling pressured to increase them. So once again its the elite class who are causing the problems and blaming Anet.

TabascoSauce · Sep 10, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

My arguement doesnt fall down at all.

Hey, freeked, read this one again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

freakedoutfish, I'd have to say I'm just not understanding your attitude. You seem to be saying that you don't enjoy grind, but since you were able to put your nose to the grindstone and get to the rewards in a time period you didn't consider to be beyond the point of unreasonability, it's not a problem and everyone else should too.

But you still keep saying that you don't enjoy grind.

Isn't Guild Wars supposed to be a game? Aren't games supposed to be fun? How, may I ask, is doing something you don't enjoy fun?

I've expressed my feelings in the "How do I get R5 with Norn without grind" thread, but to summarise: I don't mind the rank requirements in and of themselves. I do mind that there doesn't seem to be a way to get them past a certain (fairly low) level without grinding - something which, if the posts are to be believed, no one on either side of this discussion actually enjoys!

That said, referring to the PCGamer article in which GWEN and GW2 were announced, it is mentioned that ANet doesn't intend to just leave us with GWEN until GW2 - that with the abolishment of the campaign system, that a portion of their design team would be able to work in more SF-style content updates that they were unable to implement while working on the campaigns. Hopefully some of those will include new ways to gather faction - since correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if no-one actually likes the grind, it's just that some seem to find it... less unacceptable... than others.

Now that that is settled -

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

...i've personally said. Offer alternative ways to continue the life span of the game, so it survives the 2 years between GWEN and GW2 and suggest them to Anet.

But ive yet to see any other suggestions. People just seem content to complain, but not suggest different ways to add lifespan!

? Ridiculous. I usually avoid the internet slang thing, but you need to lrn2read. Everyone and their brother has suggested new zones, quests, dungeons, and towns. Even you. That is what "more game" means, since that is pretty much what compromises GW period.

So, yeah, here is a suggestion to extend the longevity of the game, since you missed it the last 14 thousand times - hows about some more zones and towns?

Dont make me say that again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again thing, again.

That is not a game, or "more game".

Thanks!
TabascoSauce